Money as Debt 3
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Loading ... - Published date: February 8, 2012
- Category: Featured, Money and Economics
- Tags: Debt, FED, Interest
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A third film called Money as Debt III – Evolution Beyond Money, released in 2011, presents Grignon’s ideas on the possible forms money may take in the future.
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humm … money is worthless
Pretty good show. Although it promotes a “personal credit” system but doesn’t go into the details of exactly how it would work, the idea is worth taking a look at.
Myself I’m a advocate of the Gold standard, mixed in with some other lending laws to fix things, but this is definitely a possible option. I usually ignore films that promote govt fiat, but this one actually didn’t. It promotes personal fiat currency, a big change from the first Money as Debt.
If you haven’t seen this series yet, make sure you take the time to watch them, you’ll learn quite a bit about money, and life in general.
5/5 stars.
I originally wrote a lengthy response asking questions of the really simplified Interest Stock & Flow section but I don’t think it is worth inserting here. Suffice it to say I thought the simplifications didn’t do justice to the problem or the argument that interest charging on created money won’t lead to runaway debt. It simply didn’t state why when a central bank creates the initial money for a money supply at interest, how said interest is ever to be paid. Later it is glanced over that money is promises of future productivity aka DEBT, and interest is reduced spending power in the future…. Okay so if productivity aka growth cannot be maintained and accelerated the principal cannot be paid, let alone the interest. Everyone knows what happens to interest that isn’t paid – it becomes principal. So, as I see it, the debt can and will run away unless growth continues.
The description of Self Issued Credit to replace commodity based or fiat money was not clear enough for me. So Governments and Industry collude to establish a Self Issued Credit system but then it immediately goes on to say that anyone could also issue their own credit so long as it is accepted. The new Government + Industry system is going to allow somebody else to create a money system outside of their control? Really? The same people we don’t trust right now to manage the money supply “for the good of all” (As if anyone believes that…) are supposed to be trusted to create a fair system of credit around some digital currency ala BitCoin? All it takes is one cryptographic design flaw to be found and exploited and it crashes down. Suddenly counterfeit money is back in a big way. (And don’t think expert code crackers wouldn’t be on this in a heartbeat.) Also, if the current actions of Governments towards the freedom of communications on the internet illustrate anything it is that they would build in a means to track and stop the official digital currency anywhere and anytime. Just like the fears of having RFID chips in dollars, coins, and cards… They shut down the chips for what you are carrying and you can’t function as a person anymore. Access to life needs revoked.
After the whole series which I did find very informative I am left with this: I have watched the first two parts several times. This one I watched through and then scrubbed back and forth picking out things I didn’t get the first time and trying to examine them more. Three or four hours of film explaining in the most simple terms possible the ups, downs, and whys and why-nots of our money system and I have a slightly better understanding than I did before. If the mechanics of money and exchange are this complicated something is wrong systemically with our cultural attachment to money.
Near the end, the film goes into the doom and gloom – One world bank and our public debt and the interest charged with repeated use of a pic of Ben Bernanke flying on a unicorn… but I thought the interest wasn’t a big deal? Never-mind. It also says growth is the problem. (The scene where we will soon need 2 Earths!)
Did the Self Issued Credit system proposed offer any incite as to how it will help to solve poverty? Did it offer any incite as to how it will help to stop hoarding of the necessary life resources people need? Did it say how it will help meet the challenge of keeping people gainfully employed while technology continues to render more jobs redundant or obsolete? Or how it will continue to be relevant as advances in technology render the old ideas of scarcity void? Is it magically going to free up the information and knowledge currently held under patents for profit to make renewable energy production viable which we absolutely will need?
It makes inference right at the end that if this continues we will be facing a major crisis akin to the dinosaur extinction event. Some of us think we are already there. But then it offers nothing as how a new money system will solve a single solitary problem related to that, such as environmental degradation, resource depletion, and the like. I guess fancy new digital money will be our savior. Like magic. All of the other assumptions about competition and efficiency made by economic theorists are never challenged. No – current money is the only problem and we just need a better money.
I don’t buy it. The last parts of the film was short on details and did not convince me that this is the solution we need.
However hours and hours of well supported documentaries and lectures as well as books by a wide variety of authors do have me aligned with the ideas basically proposed by The Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement. The reliance on money and idea of continued scarcity in an increasingly technologically advanced world does not make sense. We don’t need new money. We need a new culture.
http://www.digitalcoin.info/
I only got through the videos and the first short PDF and partway through the second PDF. Too tired to continue now. I am going to have to finish reading the rest before I make a final judgement but…
From Digital coin specifications:
“3. A “digital object” is a secure unique serial number
Like paper cash without the paper, a “digital object” can be securely exchanged instantaneously, peer-to-peer without any third party involvement, like banks, PayPal or alternative currency databases. No accounting is required unless desired, and no records are generated.”
How is the security of the exchange guaranteed? How is the truly unique serial number generated that cannot be hacked or cracked? Where would these objects be stored securely that they could not be lost (data corruption, failed server system, etc) and couldn’t be duplicated? Could you print the long serial number on paper and then store it in a safe? What if the paper is damaged then the money is gone. How then will the coin be returned to the issuer to be extinguished? How do you convince people that the issuers systems won’t make an accounting error and reject perfectly viable coins? (They could claim it is counterfeit and then it is incumbent on you to prove that it isn’t.) See the problems that BitCoin has faced – Wired did a good article on it a while ago.
Also…
“4. Credit Coin is a “digital object”. It is a secure unique serial number representing a time-limited contract for delivery of goods and services from a specific supplier, hereinafter
called the Issuer. Failure of the Issuer to redeem its credit contracts with its advertised products or services is a breach of contract and grounds for legal remedy, and ultimately, if not remedied, the liquidation of the Issuer’s assets.”
See problems with the concept of a digital object above. There is a reason digital information isn’t the same as real world objects – it has almost none of the same properties that real objects do. Digital information can be moved instantaneously, duplicated endlessly, compressed, expanded, and merged and broken out of other information with little to no effort. It has no weight and practically no volume with respect to physical space and to the rates we are increasing storage capacity. It is also inherently unsecured because of these properties. As I have pointed out on my blog, I do not believe that it is possible for information, once created and transmitted, to really be secured or controlled. It simply has never been a strong feature of our development of ever advancing abilities to disseminate information through the ages. Protecting it has always been many steps behind and all protections either fail or are broken at some point – otherwise the information is simply lost.
And from Digital Coin In Brief:
“Credit Coin is a form of stock in the Issuer, in which the Issuer guarantees to buy back the stock with product. Dividends are paid in additional product or service. Or, put another way, the Issuer honours its own Credit Coin at a higher value than Perpetual Coin or any other Issuer’s Credit Coin.
This is adapted from the principle governing consumer-producer cooperatives in existence today. The essence of the idea is that, if a customer gives a farmer money for carrots in April, that customer gets more carrots than someone who just shows up to pay for the farmer’s carrots in September. This is deserved because the April customer has made a commitment and taken a risk on that particular farmer, as the price and quality of the carrots is not guaranteed, only the “share of the harvest” represented by a lower price. Thus the April customer is clearly an investor not a lender.”
What happens when/if that farmer cannot honor all of his coin in circulation? Say he doesn’t grow as many carrots as he intended… the value of his coin is lowered to the actual amount of the product he produced? This is just like if a company collapses now and you are holding stock in it that is traded on the exchanges – only now it seems this system may be proposing to move Wall Street’s Publicly traded stock out into the public as our common money. So if the company can’t redeem the credits at their issued value, the individuals holding the credits must then challenge him in court to honor his issuance of the coin? Yay more litigation in the world. Or would acceptance of this issued coin be contingent on you sacrificing certain legal rights and being forced to go through a company appointed arbiter? (Much like you know and must accept that you are taking a risk in buying into a company today.)
How about paying employees? Are your employees of the farm (or any company) paid in company issued coin? What if nobody out there will voluntarily accept that issuer’s CC and your “pay” is worthless. (Reminds me of a certain .Com bubble a while ago where companies were issuing stock instead of paying employees with dollars…) I guess free marketer believers would say you should start working somewhere else but how then would startups be able to get trust from people to accept their issued coins before they have a product to exchange? There are so many questions I have for this that keeps making me think it is just more needless complexity to try to prop up an system that is ultimately waning in meaning and usefulness.
This brings me to what another comment brought up. Decreasing numbers of jobs thanks to technological unemployment, along with addressing social stratification, cyclical consumption, needless/mindless conspicuous consumption, crime, and proper efficient resource management are, so far, unmentioned. How does this new money system address any of the real problems people have? Sure, it could fix or substantially improve the money system but is that all that needs to be done? How long would this money system roll on before some major unforeseen flaw appears and wreaks havoc such as what we are currently experiencing with our debt/fiat money systems? I guess if you accept the premise that the market theories we currently operate on are optimal in some way, even in the face of horrible levels of poverty and rampant waste of our limited resources, then everything will be “fine.”
As I said I will keep reading the documents and hopefully some of these questions will be addressed, but I am not going to get my hopes up.
This documentary doesn’t take into account the lack of jobs, increase in automation and a growing population that keeps gaining momentum.
Although it is very informative, I personally don’t think that self issued credit is the answer.
You would still have planned obsolescence and a whole lot of other things that hold us back too.
I wonder why didn’t they consider the possibility of removing money, trade or barter completely, like many other movements propose?
Disappointing end for this series, I was expecting more of them. They are just “thinking inside the box”.
My sentiments, exactly.
Their understanding of the history and problems of money is excellent. However, their solution doesn’t address technological unemployment, planned obsolescence, corruption, greed, etc.
Dissapointing conclusion from an otherwise excellent series.
The only 2 truly real salutions to date to all of mankinds problems to date are in fact; THE VENUS PROJECT & THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT.
C’mon don’t be religious about them! I’m a huge fan and a memeber of TZM, but we must understand the issues that we are talking about. A main issue is the current monetary system and we need to investigate a trasition path to the future envisioned by TZM & TVP. Also, when better information is presented, the project must evolve accordigly.
Pehaps the fervor with how some of us here promote TVP and TZM does get a bit heavy (I’d avoid religious…) but the point remains, MAD3 claims to propose an evolution beyond money with just another kind of money. This doesn’t address the problems that money has failed to adequately fix and to this point TVP and TZM are among a few that have or attempt to create and refine a wholistic approach one that does indeed as you point out need to keep evolving. More “new” monies is just like another religious prophet hitting the scene and having their own single and “true” panacea to life’s problems and difficulties. Just have faith and it’ll all work out. Econonomics is just the latest religion on the block. I think the problem TVP and TZM face is that it recognizes that no single means or solution will fix things (like MAD3 seems to suggest) and it is very difficult/scary to communicate this to people. Think about it – sum up your religion (if you have one) in 3 – 5 sentences… Then try to do it with the concept of the RBE as many here understand it. I personally have a much more difficult time trying to state the goals and processes of the RBE so succinctly but have no trouble doing it with my former faith.
I think most of the people who subscribe to this website would agree with me when I say that we are all far beyond realizing money’s actual irrelevancy to the natural order of life on planet Earth. Am I being realistic or irrational? I guess that’s for anybody to decide.
IF humanity could agree to disagree globally and think about how things are today and how they’ll be tomorrow, we very well could see a total shift in our paradigm. We all know that humanity is inhumane, and the internet has made being passive aggressive hilarious. It’s disgusting! What are we doing to ourselves? Our Coca-Colas “give mice cancer”, chemicals in plastic are destroying the chances of male birth, our water is filled with vitamins, and when I say something about it, they try to give me Vicodin. It’s ridiculous, and it’s corrupt from the very center, but still I can not be cynical. I think only dependably and ingenuity should be the currency in our new global economy.
Fuck the power structure, I say we were all born kings and queens. Who are they to make all of us the pawns?
Guys cool down,…
As dissappointed you may find the 3rd part of the documentary, don’t forget that the writer is just trying to solve a global problem with little or no help… World problems cannot be solved by one man only, he needs support not likes or dislikes via comments. Where are your suggestions? Do you have any other idea as a solution?
I think the solution to all our problems is easier as we think. It’s not even unknown, we just don’t realise it: It’s democracy.
Not today’s “democracy” that makes rich people even richer and eventually will drag to total poverty the rest 99% of the world population.
The whole world population is the one who WORKS and creates growth and wealth that ends up to some gready rats via corrupted politicians who made the banks stronger than states and goverments. First of all, the “economic crisis” is not a financial problem, but it is a political problem. It was a political problem from the start.
We need Democracy. Real Democracy where EVERYONE can suggest something and EVERYONE will decide and VOTE on every parapraph / sentence of EVERY suggestion. Today’s technology and science can easily get us the tools that is needed. Even Facebook has a “Like” button on every silly and useless post or status update or photo.
But we forgot to DEMAND the existence of such a “Like” or “Dislike” button on EVERY paragraph of EVERY law that the governments VOTE FOR US WITHOUT ASKING US.
We never had Democracy.
Ancient Greeks weren’t stupid, i think we all agree on that, so they must understood something we miss todays :
That when the citizens are active, disquss all the issues, are well informed and take part in the decision making, no one can take the power from the people who own the power.
The world needs to be ruled by all of the people and not some G7 G8 G20 or some bankers for their own profit.
There are no leaders who cannot be corrupted, or threatened.
So we need no leaders to “guide us”. We are the leaders.
We all, in cooperation and in peace and mutual understanding.
So, either we choose to decide on EVERTYTHING, either we continue to argue eachother in pointless discussions about WHAT OTHERS DECIDE ABOUT OUR FUTURE.
When did we really DECIDED FOR ANYTHING ?
NEVER.
ITS TIME TO TEST THIS AT LEAST ONCE.
Peace, (real) democracy and then the biggest problems will find their way to be solved.
After all 7.000.000.000 brains can do magic if they all try together for one common goal: Our better FUTURE.
And never get dissapointed : We the people of the World can make all these billionaires dissapear with one simple move in one day…
Just with pencils …
(food for thought)
“Real” democracy is impossible because the people are never well enough informed to make decisions in their best interests. Out current system of representation is broken because by its very nature ends up serving special interests and those who are our representatives. This concept of rational actors is patently false – we all make mostly irrational decisions that we then rationalize. I am not an engineer of any kind… do you want me deciding where a road should be placed for its maximum benefit and minimum impact? Why then do we trust city councils comprised of other basically nontechnical individuals to first decide where something needs to go attached to a maximum budget and then engineers are brought in to make their plan “fit”. It is ludicrous.
I don’t want 300 million under educated and uneducated people making decisions on the solutions to technical problems any more than I want 435 members of the house and 100 members of the senate deciding them. Very few of them are qualified and yet their opinion is supposed to be equal on all matters presented? Is your mechanic likely to be as qualified in deciding how to treat tonsillitis as your family doc?
I happened across this news item the other day…http://news.yahoo.com/people-arent-smart-enough-democracy-flourish-scientists-185601411.html
A way to begin is by educating people in understanding that it is okay for them to not have an opinion on something they were never trained in… simply because they were never trained in it. Like Jacque Fresco says (and I believe people like Buckminster Fuller have also stated) it is preferable to not have an opinion when you are not educated in a subject. Just say I don’t know and leave it to people who are knowledgable in that field.
Remaking money with digital currency does nothing to solve any of the issues we are facing and I think that is the major gripe with the third installment of MAD. You are right, he is one (or few people) working on that idea but it is flawed. As I have stated before how does this fix problems of resource scarcity? Social stratification? Energy depletion? The Venus Project does offer solutions to these challenges and they are not the only ones.